This was such an enjoyable and enlightening listen. It may be my all time favourite Surviving Healthcare episode. Thank you Robert and Frank. I have pointed my husband at this as he has a lot of friends in the US who should all hear it and buy the book.
Damn straight, Yoho. My better half went in for a hysterectomy, and a few weeks later we were presented with a bill for complete payment by us which Ins. previously indicated they would cover. We came to find out it was coded 'out-patient' (she was in the hospital for three days), we replied instantly of this 'error' and they said they would "look into it".
Three weeks later, we get another invoice saying all of it was paid for and "covered". I'm not sure if it was an error, but my guess, based on your great post here, is that it was intentional. In this circumstance, they were on the hook for it either way as Ins said it was covered. I would've sued in this instance as it wasn't an inexpensive cost. #StayOutofHospitals
OTH, and another nod to your post, my former doc accepted direct payment for an in-clinic visit as we were in between Ins. coverage at the time. It was also half the cost.
Thanks again for this post as it explains much and connects many more dots!
I see on Amazon that Frank Lobb has four books on this subject, from 2012 to 2024. I'm wondering which one to order first, and what the differences are between them.
Thanks, the newest book is on it's way to me now. I wanted a hardcopy in hand for study.
BTW, I forwarded the post to a radiologist friend who made this comment:
"Pretty shocking isn’t it. Not sure if that all applies to people on Medicare as that would make the federal government the insurer and they write the rules and control who can prescribe drugs. The other problem with this theory is the reality that so many of the physician practices have been bought by insurance companies (United Healthcare is the largest employer of docs in the country) or private equity which means those docs can’t side with the patients and still keep their job."
This seems to be for HMOs, PPNs, etc.; with traditional Medicare, I don’t have a network, so I don’t see that there would be such a provider agreement. I find that most of my doctors take Medicare assignment, and I can remember only 1 bill from an emergency room for <$30 in years. Fortunately, I am pretty healthy; like all of us, I fear serious illness in part because of the financial consequences, but definitely do not want any part of the private, overpaid Medicare (dis)Advantage plans, and encourage all folks turning 65 to stick with Original/Traditional Medicare if they possibly can.
I'm really disappointed to hear such bad things about Cato. I've obtained some great libertarian monographs from them over the years. Being on Medicare these past few years has certainly been an education! It's especially difficult to know what is a restriction placed on Primary Care MDs by some government or board, and what is allowed/disallowed under Medicare. Even with MAGA/MAHA I fear health freedom is an impossible dream.
I expected that most hospital bills contain major fraud...looking at the size of them. Luckily, neither my wife nor I have had major hospital bills and the insurance coverage along with Medicare has been mostly adequate for hospital charges.
This is incredible info. Something to definitely keep on the back burner should the need arise to question outrageous hospital bills. Is there anything in this entire country that isn't corrupt, fraudulent and a big fat lie?
This is exactly why authority can never be trusted. There is never anyone watching what they do.
What about people who cannot afford insurance? We lost insurance when Obama care caused premiums to rise so far above what we our small budiness could afford we lost it. Yet we made just enough to not be eligible for any subsidies. Last year my diabetic husband ended up in the hospital FOR 8 MONTHS. We are now a million dollars in medical debt. He sobs daily over the worry of it. Do any of these secret agreements apply to us? Ironically, I could have paid off his bills in a few years if they were billed at Medicare rates, but instead were are billed at the maximum for every little thing.
This reminds me of the time I launched into an epic rant in a crowded elevator full of state employees about the word "system."
_______
I found this interview to be not only true but very interesting personally because much of my employment over thirty years in some way related to medical and hospital care and bills.
I could see early on that the billing of hospital charges was generally a big mess and a big joke. I sort of adopted a consoling phrase that I would use to counsel patients who were very upset and worried about their hospital bills. I would say "Don't worry. These things can be worked out."
Most of my own health care and medical bills were sort of just taken care of by Divine Providence. However one time I had to have spine surgery and I had good regular health insurance coverage, no medicare or medicaid involved. My bill for my hospital stay was extremely high and the amount I was said to owe after my insurance paid was still very high.
I called the medical records department of the hospital and told them I wanted to come in and look through my medical record chart and compare it line by line with every charge on my hospital bill. The response of the employee at the hospital seemed to be sort of mild apoplexy.
They gave me an appointment date and time to come in and do what I requested but like within two or three days I received another bill from the hospital that showed all charges were paid in full and that I owed no money at all for anything connected with that hospital stay.
Just thought I would share that because doing what I did may work for you who are in a similar situation.
_______
I am running on faith now and that is a firm foundation for everyone.
________
Saint Paul's letter to the Ephesians
Ephesians 6:13-15
"Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice, And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace:
I am unable to find a doctor to see that I have any faith in after being diagnosed with Hashimotos 6 years ago. Trying to figure things out on my own is a crapshoot at best. If you could provide any guidance I am a paying customer with Medicare which to date I have never used
Regular MDs are notoriously ill-informed about thyroid issues. They look at TSH and maybe prescribe T4 (Synthroid), which may get your numbers more normal but not alleviate symptoms. I can't completely vouch for this doctor, but there is some interesting (and perhaps helpful) information on his Web site. One caution: he sells nutritional supplements that support thyroid health, so be careful with your $. That said, what he says makes some sense, and I continue to read his articles: https://www.restartmed.com/hashimotos-thyroiditis/
I look forward to checking out the link; thanks! I started taking 12.5mg Iodorol along with my Synthroid about 6 months ago. Ironically, I'm about to leave to get a complete metabolic panel done, hopefully including iodine. Recent concerns regarding lung cancer have kind of swept the thyroid issues aside, but they're too important to forget about completely!
Yes I'm aware of all stated. I was fortunate to find a neurologist/psychiatrist who was able to get me diagnosed and knew more about thyroid issues than most. I was never offered meds since my "numbers" were off but nonetheless in balance. After having to spend $10k out of pocket for help getting back on track, since insurance wouldn't cover anything for an unaffiliated MD, I need to find someone locally to help me manage things going forward. I appreciate the link and I'll check it out. Everyone in functional medicine have to sell something so I'll proceed with questions as always. 👍
The occupational prestige once afforded the medical industry has been eviscerated. It turns out for many the prestige was never deserved. Like sanitation workers and auto mechanics and plumbers there are good and bad. Medicine is no different however we were led to believe the medical school education and the hippo oath were gold standards. Such a ruse when considering the med school system is severely influenced by the pharma industry and upon graduation the diagnostic skills of many is very
Limited. What is evident is the favoritism towards pill prescribing and medical device surgery. The behavior of many health industry
Professionals during the recent plague (IFR of .015-.025) was the big reveal. There is widespread corruption from med school to research to public health agencies. It’s a high prestige sewer.
I sell health insurance and I find that some physicians are asking for money up front for a surgery that involves "cosmetic surgery." the patient is told that the procedure will require longer than what they are paid for and that part of it will be what is deemed by Medicare or Insurance as cosmetic. In these cases the person pays for the surgery. I can see the reasoning behind this and I think it is a good solution. Health insurance since Obama Care is so expensive. Many people are paying more for monthly health insurance than for their mortgage payment. Paying more for less is insane, but we are prohibited in CA to sell non ACA compliant policies, there are none available.
Thank you so much for the great discussion. Thank you for sharing your experience to help other people. What you both are saying is so important to tell people the truth so they can understand what is going on. I am a retired RN & USAF veteran. I have discovered a better way to stay healthy called alternative medicine which has been around a lot longer than the pharmaceutical industry and our hospital monopoly. Keep up the good work and God bless you!
This was such an enjoyable and enlightening listen. It may be my all time favourite Surviving Healthcare episode. Thank you Robert and Frank. I have pointed my husband at this as he has a lot of friends in the US who should all hear it and buy the book.
Frank is amazing. And thanks for the praise!
Damn straight, Yoho. My better half went in for a hysterectomy, and a few weeks later we were presented with a bill for complete payment by us which Ins. previously indicated they would cover. We came to find out it was coded 'out-patient' (she was in the hospital for three days), we replied instantly of this 'error' and they said they would "look into it".
Three weeks later, we get another invoice saying all of it was paid for and "covered". I'm not sure if it was an error, but my guess, based on your great post here, is that it was intentional. In this circumstance, they were on the hook for it either way as Ins said it was covered. I would've sued in this instance as it wasn't an inexpensive cost. #StayOutofHospitals
OTH, and another nod to your post, my former doc accepted direct payment for an in-clinic visit as we were in between Ins. coverage at the time. It was also half the cost.
Thanks again for this post as it explains much and connects many more dots!
always ask to see the contract between the provider and ins co. They will know you know.
Good information and another reason to embrace good health practices in order to avoid hospitalization.
Opt out! 20 plus years…
I see on Amazon that Frank Lobb has four books on this subject, from 2012 to 2024. I'm wondering which one to order first, and what the differences are between them.
Older ones are same subject but incomplete. Get the newest one.
Thanks, the newest book is on it's way to me now. I wanted a hardcopy in hand for study.
BTW, I forwarded the post to a radiologist friend who made this comment:
"Pretty shocking isn’t it. Not sure if that all applies to people on Medicare as that would make the federal government the insurer and they write the rules and control who can prescribe drugs. The other problem with this theory is the reality that so many of the physician practices have been bought by insurance companies (United Healthcare is the largest employer of docs in the country) or private equity which means those docs can’t side with the patients and still keep their job."
Firefox says:
Hmm. We’re having trouble finding that site.
We can’t connect to the server at stopthethyroidinsanity.com.
??
https://stopthethyroidmadness.com
sorry
this is tremendously valuable and deserves study
Worked. Thank you for the link.
This seems to be for HMOs, PPNs, etc.; with traditional Medicare, I don’t have a network, so I don’t see that there would be such a provider agreement. I find that most of my doctors take Medicare assignment, and I can remember only 1 bill from an emergency room for <$30 in years. Fortunately, I am pretty healthy; like all of us, I fear serious illness in part because of the financial consequences, but definitely do not want any part of the private, overpaid Medicare (dis)Advantage plans, and encourage all folks turning 65 to stick with Original/Traditional Medicare if they possibly can.
But isn't the Consumer Protection Financial Bureau being dissolved?
I'm really disappointed to hear such bad things about Cato. I've obtained some great libertarian monographs from them over the years. Being on Medicare these past few years has certainly been an education! It's especially difficult to know what is a restriction placed on Primary Care MDs by some government or board, and what is allowed/disallowed under Medicare. Even with MAGA/MAHA I fear health freedom is an impossible dream.
I expected that most hospital bills contain major fraud...looking at the size of them. Luckily, neither my wife nor I have had major hospital bills and the insurance coverage along with Medicare has been mostly adequate for hospital charges.
This is incredible info. Something to definitely keep on the back burner should the need arise to question outrageous hospital bills. Is there anything in this entire country that isn't corrupt, fraudulent and a big fat lie?
This is exactly why authority can never be trusted. There is never anyone watching what they do.
things are a mess aren't they
What about people who cannot afford insurance? We lost insurance when Obama care caused premiums to rise so far above what we our small budiness could afford we lost it. Yet we made just enough to not be eligible for any subsidies. Last year my diabetic husband ended up in the hospital FOR 8 MONTHS. We are now a million dollars in medical debt. He sobs daily over the worry of it. Do any of these secret agreements apply to us? Ironically, I could have paid off his bills in a few years if they were billed at Medicare rates, but instead were are billed at the maximum for every little thing.
Extremely interesting....hard to believe, but very interesting. I'll be checking out the book.
"For the love of money is the root of all evil" - 1 Timothy 6:10.
Thank you for this good article.
This reminds me of the time I launched into an epic rant in a crowded elevator full of state employees about the word "system."
_______
I found this interview to be not only true but very interesting personally because much of my employment over thirty years in some way related to medical and hospital care and bills.
I could see early on that the billing of hospital charges was generally a big mess and a big joke. I sort of adopted a consoling phrase that I would use to counsel patients who were very upset and worried about their hospital bills. I would say "Don't worry. These things can be worked out."
Most of my own health care and medical bills were sort of just taken care of by Divine Providence. However one time I had to have spine surgery and I had good regular health insurance coverage, no medicare or medicaid involved. My bill for my hospital stay was extremely high and the amount I was said to owe after my insurance paid was still very high.
I called the medical records department of the hospital and told them I wanted to come in and look through my medical record chart and compare it line by line with every charge on my hospital bill. The response of the employee at the hospital seemed to be sort of mild apoplexy.
They gave me an appointment date and time to come in and do what I requested but like within two or three days I received another bill from the hospital that showed all charges were paid in full and that I owed no money at all for anything connected with that hospital stay.
Just thought I would share that because doing what I did may work for you who are in a similar situation.
_______
I am running on faith now and that is a firm foundation for everyone.
________
Saint Paul's letter to the Ephesians
Ephesians 6:13-15
"Therefore take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and to stand in all things perfect. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of justice, And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace:
https://drbo.org/chapter/56006.htm
Amen
good job and exactly right
I am unable to find a doctor to see that I have any faith in after being diagnosed with Hashimotos 6 years ago. Trying to figure things out on my own is a crapshoot at best. If you could provide any guidance I am a paying customer with Medicare which to date I have never used
Bob in NC
Check out Moosa’s Substack. They are also writing a book. Also check out Dr. David Brownstein MD books.
shop doctors
be polite
don't complain
just ask for help
go to Mayo if you cannot figure it out
Regular MDs are notoriously ill-informed about thyroid issues. They look at TSH and maybe prescribe T4 (Synthroid), which may get your numbers more normal but not alleviate symptoms. I can't completely vouch for this doctor, but there is some interesting (and perhaps helpful) information on his Web site. One caution: he sells nutritional supplements that support thyroid health, so be careful with your $. That said, what he says makes some sense, and I continue to read his articles: https://www.restartmed.com/hashimotos-thyroiditis/
Best of luck, and I hope you find some answers!
iodine is important; look at my iodine post
also read the chapter in Hormone Secrets
stopthethyroidinsanity.com is a great resource
I look forward to checking out the link; thanks! I started taking 12.5mg Iodorol along with my Synthroid about 6 months ago. Ironically, I'm about to leave to get a complete metabolic panel done, hopefully including iodine. Recent concerns regarding lung cancer have kind of swept the thyroid issues aside, but they're too important to forget about completely!
Could you have meant "stopthethyroidmadness.com"? None of my browsers could connect to "insanity".
Yes I'm aware of all stated. I was fortunate to find a neurologist/psychiatrist who was able to get me diagnosed and knew more about thyroid issues than most. I was never offered meds since my "numbers" were off but nonetheless in balance. After having to spend $10k out of pocket for help getting back on track, since insurance wouldn't cover anything for an unaffiliated MD, I need to find someone locally to help me manage things going forward. I appreciate the link and I'll check it out. Everyone in functional medicine have to sell something so I'll proceed with questions as always. 👍
The occupational prestige once afforded the medical industry has been eviscerated. It turns out for many the prestige was never deserved. Like sanitation workers and auto mechanics and plumbers there are good and bad. Medicine is no different however we were led to believe the medical school education and the hippo oath were gold standards. Such a ruse when considering the med school system is severely influenced by the pharma industry and upon graduation the diagnostic skills of many is very
Limited. What is evident is the favoritism towards pill prescribing and medical device surgery. The behavior of many health industry
Professionals during the recent plague (IFR of .015-.025) was the big reveal. There is widespread corruption from med school to research to public health agencies. It’s a high prestige sewer.
they are people, too, and if you are courteous, they will try to help
Iodine has a lot to do with thyroid health, and most of us are deficient. See my iodine post.
I sell health insurance and I find that some physicians are asking for money up front for a surgery that involves "cosmetic surgery." the patient is told that the procedure will require longer than what they are paid for and that part of it will be what is deemed by Medicare or Insurance as cosmetic. In these cases the person pays for the surgery. I can see the reasoning behind this and I think it is a good solution. Health insurance since Obama Care is so expensive. Many people are paying more for monthly health insurance than for their mortgage payment. Paying more for less is insane, but we are prohibited in CA to sell non ACA compliant policies, there are none available.
But it sounds like those physicians are duping their patients then and the patient is within their rights to refuse, based on the article. No?
yes
Thank you so much for the great discussion. Thank you for sharing your experience to help other people. What you both are saying is so important to tell people the truth so they can understand what is going on. I am a retired RN & USAF veteran. I have discovered a better way to stay healthy called alternative medicine which has been around a lot longer than the pharmaceutical industry and our hospital monopoly. Keep up the good work and God bless you!